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  1. #691
    All-Pro slipknottin's Avatar
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    Ya I'm sure your right, a former college DE who clearly knows everything taught JPP everything in a year and a half.

    I mean that Tuck spent two seasons in the NFL improving his hand usage shows that guys can learn it within a month with college coaching.


  2. #692
    All-Pro nycsportzfan's Avatar
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="slipknottin"]Ya I'm sure your right, a former college DE who clearly knows everything taught JPP everything in a year and a half.

    I mean that Tuck spent two seasons in the NFL improving his hand usage shows that guys can learn it within a month with college coaching.[/quote] Ya, u and tuck talked about that over dinner last night, right? Dude, your full of it...

  3. #693
    All-Pro nycsportzfan's Avatar
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]


    [quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]]I dont think its over rated I just think coaches believe that they can teach technique. I think teams draft athletes way more on defense then offense though[/quote] I think they draft athletes on both sides as often as they can. And you're right, they can teach technique. It goes back to the mental toughness and how coachable guys are. That's why a guy like JPP is a coaches dream, extremely athletic but he is very hard working, and will listen and apply everything he is told.[/quote] Plus, its not like JPP wasen't showing the signs of being a big time player.. He had a pretty darn good yr at S.Florida last yr, in his 1st as a Major College player.. 16.5 TFL, 6sacks, 1int, 2ff's, 3pass breakups.. I mean, he put some monster numbers up.. Its not like this guy came to the pros's, knowing nothing, as some made it out to be.. He'd been playing DE for like 5yrs now, learning and learning... Now, its mostly learning the speed of the Pro Game and diffrent Tendencies of Top of the line Olineman and what not... I had a feeling he'd make a impact as a rookie, and at least show the signs of him being stellar in the future.. some made it out to be, like he was gonna need to learn on the bench for this whole yr, like he never played the positon before, or something...
    [/quote]I disagree those are monster numbers. There good but there hardly monster. Technique wise he was very very raw at South Florida.His had placement was poor and he hadnext to no pass rush moves.Hejust overwhelmed the opposition with physical strength,speed, and will.He still has his trouble playing the run and that will take some time. Kiwi getting hurt has definitely helped hima lot. It has allowed him to get some more snaps and move his progress forward . He is getting by mostly on physical ability, pure tenacity, and motor.Things that will definitely help U contribute as a pass rusher. Once he gets his technique down he will grow into an all around player. With all the extra playing time he has received this year it should really help him going into next season. Maybe Justin Tuck can give JPP sometime this off season on working on his run game technique[/quote] i dissagree, he had a big time season and lead a pretty good defensive team.. Sometimes i think u guys make this out to be more like Rocket Science then football... What do u think all the coaches have been teaching this guy for the last 5yrs? How ot bullrush???lol U don't think the kids learned about hand placement from the last 4coaches hes had? I think the hardest thing for players to really learn is the playbook, the speed of the game, and yes, some little positional tendencies that come in time, but overall, the guy can play DE.. Just like i heard about Iupati, whos also starting as a rookie, and doing extremely well.. Its really not coincedence that those 2are playing very well, because there not dumb, i'm sure they've learned plenty over the last 5yrs, and mostly everything they here at this point, is just being drilled in there heads, because i'm sure they've heard it before.. Most rooks can't be successful because they at least have some sort of vet in front of em, if even for a yr, but as soon as JPP was in, we seen the potential for him to be a beast... Sure, hes just now getting the sacks and what not, but we've all seen this coming, from the time he stepped on the field, and we seen "jpp's a beast" threads from over a month ago...
    [/quote] Whatever man if U cant see that he was a raw player in terms of how to properly play the position then theres really know point even discussing it .I can see an improvement in his hands and how he uses leverage since he came to the NFL.If he knew how to do it in college he certainly wasnt doing it.So whatever the Giants have done to get him to listen and take it on the field well thats the point of coaching.I dont know what your talking about up top I never said he would have to sit on the bench. I said he could be used as a situational pass rusher and thats exactly what they have used him as.What Ive hear about Iupati is he has been rather ordinary actually. If your a guard and your picked that high Im looking for an immediateprobowl player and he has been far from that. He has had big time pass protection issues. According to 49er fans still has poor technique so I guess he is uncoachable then if U think they have been learning it for years and he still cant do it right.




    [/quote] and as far as 9er fans, my best freind is a 9er fan, like crazy 9er fan, almost freakishly so, and he loves iupati, and i've seen him highlighted on monday night football for job well done, when they were running like mad men on Arizona, with b.westbrook, mite i add.. I mean, hes been solid, and there run game says so...

    Singeltary has said from day 1, that iupati has showed the abilty to step in and start from DAY 1, he was all ready given the starting job in freaking August, before pre season even began, because of what he showed during Training camp... Pretty good, for a guy whos got all this learning on the positon to do... And again, i understand theres a whole new play book and scheme and speed of the game to learn, but the guy knows how to play Guard, its what he freaking does for a living...
    [/quote]




    Your acting like I said the guy was going to bust or something. All I said is that I dont like interior line prospects that high and If I was going to get one I would want one more polished then Iupati. I still said he was the 2nd best interior line prospect in the draft . Im just not crazy about drafting interior lineman and an upside interior lineman at that, that high.

    [/quote] i know, your not calling him a bust, never said that..

  4. #694
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="Neverend"]

    [quote user="nycsportzfan"]I guess, u could say hes still learning stuff, but how much is there to learn at DE? I mean, does it take 5yrs to learn how to play the freaking positon? if your good at the positon and have the talent, is the reason you'll produce, not that your learning the positon of DE for yrs and yrs.. The hardest part about any positon going into the NFL, is Scheme change, SPeed of the game, and using what you've all ready learned consistently and knowing when to use that.. Sure, i'm sure theres little tricks and tidbits a coach can give JPP on playing the position, but as far as playing the positon of DE, i'm sure hes heard it all, its just a matter of practicing and continuing to Drill the stuff all ready learned time and time again and learn the rest of the league
    [/quote]




    In JPP's case, there is a lot more learning curve than just the speed of the game and a new system. Its not that easy playing DE when you have no technique like JPP does. As a defensive lineman you must win at the point of attack, maintain leverage by staying low with a good level, anchor & set the edge, and shed blockers with proper hand technique. JPP wasn't very good at that in college as he had a tendency to be on the ground a lot against the run because he was so raw with all the things I mentioned. He made plays against therun in college (particularly his TFL's)with his quickness& athleticismrather than technique which obviously wouldn't work in the nfl.You can't blame scounts and people being critical with the draft pick because peeps prefered a safer pick who can be an immediate starter as oppose to a raw, boom-or-bust kind of guy like JPP who needed development and was a 15th overall pick no less.




    As for the pass, JPP's stance wasn't very polished and his pass rush moves was lacking. All he relied on in college was a speed rush with an occasional bull rush, nothing else. In my opinion you can't fault the people for critizing JPP because he was so raw and the learning curve in the NFL would be tough. Luckily we have a good coaching staff here and JPP is known to have good work ethic. They adjusted his stance at rookie camp and he's shown more pass rushing moves as his sack last week against trent williams was impressive. This guy is progressing a lot. I think its right using him a situational pass rusher as he's still too raw to play against the run and is still probably a couple of years away from being a 3-down player (altho thats not necessary here). I also think justin tuck and other d-lineman are going to help him polish up his technique against the run as justin tuck said 'im teaching JPP everything I know' which is incredibly encouraging to hear.

    [/quote] so, specifically, what is tuck gonna teach the kid "TECHNIQUE" wise that he dosen't all ready know? I mean, seriously, what? All it is at this point, is repititon and drillling, hes not teaching him anything he hasen't heard all ready or learned all ready, maybe hes getting reminders of diffrent things, but hes not learning anything new at this point... I'm sure tuck can tell him tons about diffrent Olinman in the league though... Right now, its just about getting out there more and more and obviously with more playing time, the better your gonna become, getting used to the scheme and the new teammates and speed of the game and what not... Its also not like he hasen't had a whole offseason to learn from our own coaches as well, before the season even began.. To me, its all about repititon, because there is not anything that hasen't been taught to him at this point, as far as technique and hand placement...

  5. #695
    All-Pro nycsportzfan's Avatar
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]


    [quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]]I dont think its over rated I just think coaches believe that they can teach technique. I think teams draft athletes way more on defense then offense though[/quote] I think they draft athletes on both sides as often as they can. And you're right, they can teach technique. It goes back to the mental toughness and how coachable guys are. That's why a guy like JPP is a coaches dream, extremely athletic but he is very hard working, and will listen and apply everything he is told.[/quote] Plus, its not like JPP wasen't showing the signs of being a big time player.. He had a pretty darn good yr at S.Florida last yr, in his 1st as a Major College player.. 16.5 TFL, 6sacks, 1int, 2ff's, 3pass breakups.. I mean, he put some monster numbers up.. Its not like this guy came to the pros's, knowing nothing, as some made it out to be.. He'd been playing DE for like 5yrs now, learning and learning... Now, its mostly learning the speed of the Pro Game and diffrent Tendencies of Top of the line Olineman and what not... I had a feeling he'd make a impact as a rookie, and at least show the signs of him being stellar in the future.. some made it out to be, like he was gonna need to learn on the bench for this whole yr, like he never played the positon before, or something...
    [/quote]I disagree those are monster numbers. There good but there hardly monster. Technique wise he was very very raw at South Florida.His had placement was poor and he hadnext to no pass rush moves.Hejust overwhelmed the opposition with physical strength,speed, and will.He still has his trouble playing the run and that will take some time. Kiwi getting hurt has definitely helped hima lot. It has allowed him to get some more snaps and move his progress forward . He is getting by mostly on physical ability, pure tenacity, and motor.Things that will definitely help U contribute as a pass rusher. Once he gets his technique down he will grow into an all around player. With all the extra playing time he has received this year it should really help him going into next season. Maybe Justin Tuck can give JPP sometime this off season on working on his run game technique[/quote] i dissagree, he had a big time season and lead a pretty good defensive team.. Sometimes i think u guys make this out to be more like Rocket Science then football... What do u think all the coaches have been teaching this guy for the last 5yrs? How ot bullrush???lol U don't think the kids learned about hand placement from the last 4coaches hes had? I think the hardest thing for players to really learn is the playbook, the speed of the game, and yes, some little positional tendencies that come in time, but overall, the guy can play DE.. Just like i heard about Iupati, whos also starting as a rookie, and doing extremely well.. Its really not coincedence that those 2are playing very well, because there not dumb, i'm sure they've learned plenty over the last 5yrs, and mostly everything they here at this point, is just being drilled in there heads, because i'm sure they've heard it before.. Most rooks can't be successful because they at least have some sort of vet in front of em, if even for a yr, but as soon as JPP was in, we seen the potential for him to be a beast... Sure, hes just now getting the sacks and what not, but we've all seen this coming, from the time he stepped on the field, and we seen "jpp's a beast" threads from over a month ago...
    [/quote] Whatever man if U cant see that he was a raw player in terms of how to properly play the position then theres really know point even discussing it .I can see an improvement in his hands and how he uses leverage since he came to the NFL.If he knew how to do it in college he certainly wasnt doing it.So whatever the Giants have done to get him to listen and take it on the field well thats the point of coaching.I dont know what your talking about up top I never said he would have to sit on the bench. I said he could be used as a situational pass rusher and thats exactly what they have used him as.What Ive hear about Iupati is he has been rather ordinary actually. If your a guard and your picked that high Im looking for an immediateprobowl player and he has been far from that. He has had big time pass protection issues. According to 49er fans still has poor technique so I guess he is uncoachable then if U think they have been learning it for years and he still cant do it right.




    [/quote] i just don't see how u see this? I mean, what do u do, hit the pause button when and examine these things? I mean, u rarley get to see any player through a whole play, and its certainly not easy to compare a play from the Pros to when he was at S.Florida... I realize hes still learning certain things, but the guy knows how to use his hands and what not.. I mean, what was Kevin Patrick teaching this guy at S.Florida? Hes getting used to the talent jump, and the speed of the game and using certain DE moves and stuff, sure... But to think, hes learning on Hand Usage is crazy, as i'm sure hes perfectly adept at using his hands, and has had that drilled into his head time and time again over the past few yrs... I thought he was gonna be good this yr, just as i did, Mike Iupati..

    I guess, u could say hes still learning stuff, but how much is there to learn at DE? I mean, does it take 5yrs to learn how to play the freaking positon? if your good at the positon and have the talent, is the reason you'll produce, not that your learning the positon of DE for yrs and yrs.. The hardest part about any positon going into the NFL, is Scheme change, SPeed of the game, and using what you've all ready learned consistently and knowing when to use that.. Sure, i'm sure theres little tricks and tidbits a coach can give JPP on playing the position, but as far as playing the positon of DE, i'm sure hes heard it all, its just a matter of practicing and continuing to Drill the stuff all ready learned time and time again and learn the rest of the league
    [/quote]




    Thats exactly what I do. . I pay much more attention to the defensive players then to offensive on a whole "QB's the exception".I like watching defensive lineman the mostthere my favorite players.Daquan Bowers has become one of my favorite players in this draft.He plays with just so much power.He is an elite run defender and should become an excellent LEwho U kick inside on passing downs in the NFL.Ive watched him a lot and Ive also become a fan of his line mate Jarvis Jenkins as well.If Coefield isnt brought back I think Jenkins would be a good option inside.

    [/quote] Even with pause button, its not entirely easy to see everything u want to, because they flash away so fast, u don't get to see every player, its impossible to see what every defensive player is doing from snap to end of play, just impossible... Believe me, i've tried it thousands of times... Sure, u pause helps, but it still dosen't give u a 100pct accurate assesment into what a players doing all the time, u miss a ton by cameras flashing to where ever the plays going, and not having all the players in the picture...

  6. #696

    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="Neverend"]


    [quote user="nycsportzfan"]I guess, u could say hes still learning stuff, but how much is there to learn at DE? I mean, does it take 5yrs to learn how to play the freaking positon? if your good at the positon and have the talent, is the reason you'll produce, not that your learning the positon of DE for yrs and yrs.. The hardest part about any positon going into the NFL, is Scheme change, SPeed of the game, and using what you've all ready learned consistently and knowing when to use that.. Sure, i'm sure theres little tricks and tidbits a coach can give JPP on playing the position, but as far as playing the positon of DE, i'm sure hes heard it all, its just a matter of practicing and continuing to Drill the stuff all ready learned time and time again and learn the rest of the league
    [/quote]




    In JPP's case, there is a lot more learning curve than just the speed of the game and a new system. Its not that easy playing DE when you have no technique like JPP does. As a defensive lineman you must win at the point of attack, maintain leverage by staying low with a good level, anchor & set the edge, and shed blockers with proper hand technique. JPP wasn't very good at that in college as he had a tendency to be on the ground a lot against the run because he was so raw with all the things I mentioned. He made plays against therun in college (particularly his TFL's)with his quickness& athleticismrather than technique which obviously wouldn't work in the nfl.You can't blame scounts and people being critical with the draft pick because peeps prefered a safer pick who can be an immediate starter as oppose to a raw, boom-or-bust kind of guy like JPP who needed development and was a 15th overall pick no less.




    As for the pass, JPP's stance wasn't very polished and his pass rush moves was lacking. All he relied on in college was a speed rush with an occasional bull rush, nothing else. In my opinion you can't fault the people for critizing JPP because he was so raw and the learning curve in the NFL would be tough. Luckily we have a good coaching staff here and JPP is known to have good work ethic. They adjusted his stance at rookie camp and he's shown more pass rushing moves as his sack last week against trent williams was impressive. This guy is progressing a lot. I think its right using him a situational pass rusher as he's still too raw to play against the run and is still probably a couple of years away from being a 3-down player (altho thats not necessary here). I also think justin tuck and other d-lineman are going to help him polish up his technique against the run as justin tuck said 'im teaching JPP everything I know' which is incredibly encouraging to hear.




    [/quote] so, specifically, what is tuck gonna teach the kid "TECHNIQUE" wise that he dosen't all ready know? I mean, seriously, what? All it is at this point, is repititon and drillling, hes not teaching him anything he hasen't heard all ready or learned all ready, maybe hes getting reminders of diffrent things, but hes not learning anything new at this point... I'm sure tuck can tell him tons about diffrent Olinman in the league though... Right now, its just about getting out there more and more and obviously with more playing time, the better your gonna become, getting used to the scheme and the new teammates and speed of the game and what not... Its also not like he hasen't had a whole offseason to learn from our own coaches as well, before the season even began.. To me, its all about repititon, because there is not anything that hasen't been taught to him at this point, as far as technique and hand placement...
    [/quote]




    if i wasnt clear:




    [quote user="Neverend"] As a defensive lineman you must win at the point of attack, maintain leverage by staying low with a good level, anchor & set the edge, and shed blockers with proper hand technique. JPP wasn't very good at that in college as he had a tendency to be on the ground a lot against the run because he was so raw with all the things I mentioned. As for the pass, JPP's stance wasn't very polished and his pass rush moves was lacking. All he relied on in college was a speed rush with an occasional bull rush, nothing else.




    [/quote]




    Once he improves in all of these areas, he will be one of the most dominant defensive players in the game. Right now he's still learning while making plays with his athleticism and motor.


  7. #697

    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    Whats every ones thoughts on NC DE/DT Quinton Coples. The guy has a monster frame to end up at LE in the NFL and kick inside as a pass rusher on passing downs. I think his best bet may be bulking up some more and playing DE in a 3-4 anyone have any thoughts. I look at that roster of NC defense and I see a lot of guys thathave they strength and athleticism of very good NFL football players. They just need to be molded a little better but they are loaded with upside talent

  8. #698
    All-Pro slipknottin's Avatar
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"]Whats every ones thoughts on NC DE/DT *Quinton Coples. The guy has a monster frame to end up at LE in the NFL and kick inside as a pass rusher on passing downs. I think his best bet may be bulking up some more and playing DE in a 3-4 anyone have any thoughts.[/quote]

    Thats exactly where I would think he goes. 5 tech. He has the frame to bulk up to close to 300 if a team wants him to play inside.

  9. #699

    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft



    [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]Whats every ones thoughts on NC DE/DT Quinton Coples. The guy has a monster frame to end up at LE in the NFL and kick inside as a pass rusher on passing downs. I think his best bet may be bulking up some more and playing DE in a 3-4 anyone have any thoughts.[/quote] Thats exactly where I would think he goes. 5 tech. He has the frame to bulk up to close to 300 if a team wants him to play inside.[/quote] U familar with Marylands Kenny Tate I think he may be a good fit to play in that 3rd safety role. He is a junior so he probably wont come out but he has some size he is listed at 6-4 220. If he comes out I think the Giants should really consider grabbing him


  10. #700
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    Re: A look at the 2011 NFL draft

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"]

    [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]Whats every ones thoughts on NC DE/DT Quinton Coples. The guy has a monster frame to end up at LE in the NFL and kick inside as a pass rusher on passing downs. I think his best bet may be bulking up some more and playing DE in a 3-4 anyone have any thoughts.[/quote] Thats exactly where I would think he goes. 5 tech. He has the frame to bulk up to close to 300 if a team wants him to play inside.[/quote] U familar with Marylands Kenny Tate I think he may be a good fit to play in that 3rd safety role. He is a junior so he probably wont come out but he has some size he is listed at 6-4 220. If he comes out I think the Giants should really consider grabbing him

    [/quote]I really like Kenny Tate. Nothing against Robert Sands but I'd take Tate over Sands anyday even though he rocked my boy Taiwan earlier this year.

    (HD) Kenny Tate (Maryland) lights up Taiwan Easterling (FSU)



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