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Thread: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

  1. #11

    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    I guess it just a matter of how far someone will say the reach is. It's really weird to me to hear an NFL fan not understand what the term reaching is. If you have a need position, you may have to "reach" to get a player much sooner than he would otherwise go in the draft... when that happens it is called reaching. Although that is really just in terms of how it is perceived by those outside of the organization. Teams will have their own draft value they use to decide who to pick when and if they should trade, etc.

    For example, everyone said the Vikings were "reaching" when they took Christian Ponder with their first pick: Mel Kiper: "The Vikings clearly need an answer at the quarterback position, but they reached for Ponder at No. 12. They clearly believe he's their guy long-term, but the draft is about
    value too. When you saw Dalton land all the way down at No. 35, you had
    to wonder if Ponder could have been had later. The Rudolph pick was a
    pretty solid value and Ballard could be a good defensive lineman. The
    Vikings also landed some needed help at cornerback and along the
    offensive line. Minnesota reached for a quarterback, in my opinion, and
    like Tennessee, still doesn't know who will start the season at
    quarterback. However, the Vikings rebounded nicely on Days 2 and 3.

    Here's a bleacher report article I just read the other day:
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ach-for-a-need


    Teams reach for a need all the time in the NFL draft.



    Even
    if they are selecting early in the first round, we've seen numerous
    occasions where teams address a need regardless of the prospects
    available.



    The Minnesota Vikings were a good example of that in 2011, when they drafted Christian Ponder at No. 12 overall.



    Here are three teams who I see reaching for a need in the 2012 NFL draft.....







  2. #12
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    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    In the 1st 3 rounds after they won their last Super Bowl they picked KP, TT, and Manningham. Where they reaching then?

  3. #13

    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="Shockeyitus"]

    [quote user="slipknottin"]I dont understand how this thread is logical. Why would picking at 64 mean they have to reach?[/quote]




    Guys that are projected to be third round picks that the Giants really like may not be around until pick #96. Therefore, they may consider grabbing someone with their 64th overall selection. Capeesh?

    [/quote]

    Thats not how it works. Guys arent rated just round 1, round 2 , round 3, etc. They are rated in a much more finite manner than that.





  4. #14

    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="buddy33"]In the 1st 3 rounds after they won their last Super Bowl they picked KP, TT, and Manningham. Where they reaching then?[/quote]

    No. And either way, it's hard to say when you don't know how the Giants rank players. We are known for going best available anyway.


  5. #15
    Veteran RagTime Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="BlueSanta"][quote user="Shockeyitus"]

    [quote user="slipknottin"]I dont understand how this thread is logical. Why would picking at 64 mean they have to reach?[/quote]




    Guys that are projected to be third round picks that the Giants really like may not be around until pick #96. Therefore, they may consider grabbing someone with their 64th overall selection. Capeesh?

    [/quote]

    Thats not how it works. Guys arent rated just round 1, round 2 , round 3, etc. They are rated in a much more finite manner than that.

    [/quote]

    Yeah, I think I remember Reese or Ross mentioning that they rank players according to "Rows". Or maybe that's just the example they used to make it easier for the layman to understand.

    The scouting staff will place a certain number of players in the first row (not nec. 32). Maybe just 5 or 6. . .maybe 15 in the later rounds. Each row theoretically has players with similar desirability. When it's time to pick, Reese will look and see which player he likes best in the highest occupied row. This helps balance the whole "Need vs. BPA" debate.

    This system also helps Reese deal with trades in the heat of the draft. If there's 10 players in the highest "occupied" row, then JR might not mind trading down 8 spots. He gets an extra pick without sacrificing quality of the draftee.

    I'm sure if I'm even close to understanding this system, it's still used more as a guide than anything else. But it's a very well researched and thought-out guide.



    We need our coaches to assign playing time based on something other than player salary.

  6. #16

    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="BlueSanta"][quote user="Shockeyitus"]

    [quote user="slipknottin"]I dont understand how this thread is logical. Why would picking at 64 mean they have to reach?[/quote]




    Guys that are projected to be third round picks that the Giants really like may not be around until pick #96. Therefore, they may consider grabbing someone with their 64th overall selection. Capeesh?

    [/quote]

    Thats not how it works. Guys arent rated just round 1, round 2 , round 3, etc. They are rated in a much more finite manner than that.




    [/quote]

    I don't think the guy is at all saying that is the way players are rated.

  7. #17
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    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    keep an eye on wr- jordan white to be our new flanker in the middle rounds.
    i also think slb prospects like nigel bradham or keenan robinson are better fits for our defense than the lb's listed.

  8. #18
    All-Pro slipknottin's Avatar
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    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="critters"]No. If a guy is projected as a 2nd rounder and you get him with the first pick in the 2nd round you aren't reaching. If a guy is projected to be a mid to late 3rd rounder and you pick last... you would have to take him in the 2nd round to get him. Point is when you pick last and say you think we should get player A in the 2nd round... people will say, he's a 3rd round guy. Well, for us to get him, we have to make him a 2nd round guy. Hence, reaching.
    [/quote]

    You make absolutely no sense what so ever.

    What if a guy is projected as a mid to late 2nd rounder, and you are picking 1st overall (33rd pick)? Wouldnt you be reaching to select him there too?

    Its the same for every team at every draft pick.


  9. #19

    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="critters"]No. If a guy is projected as a 2nd rounder and you get him with the first pick in the 2nd round you aren't reaching. If a guy is projected to be a mid to late 3rd rounder and you pick last... you would have to take him in the 2nd round to get him. Point is when you pick last and say you think we should get player A in the 2nd round... people will say, he's a 3rd round guy. Well, for us to get him, we have to make him a 2nd round guy. Hence, reaching.
    [/quote]

    You make absolutely no sense what so ever.

    What if a guy is projected as a mid to late 2nd rounder, and you are picking 1st overall (33rd pick)? Wouldnt you be reaching to select him there too?

    Its the same for every team at every draft pick.[/quote]

    I'm not saying we'll be doing anything. I'm trying to explain to you what the term reaching means. I guess Mel Kiper also makes no sense whatsoever, because he talks about it all the time. I seriously can't believe you have never heard the term before. Perhaps my scenario wasn't the best example, just trying to give you a quick idea. It's not something teams do all the time. It's something teams will be accused of doing with certain picks, and like I said, it's mostly public perception. If a guy is viewed as a late 3rd round pick and a team picks him much earlier, it wil be deemed "reaching". And yes, any team at any pick can do it. If I mention us having a late pick it's because in mock drafts someone will say, that guy isn't a 3rd round round guy, he's a late 4th round guy (in case it's not obvious, I'm not saying how the Giants organization views it, I'm talking fans)... someone defending their mock will say we may have to reach here in order to get the guy we want. Everyone making mocks takes into consideration draft value and they're fun to deabate. That's why no one is saying we should take Casey Hayward with our first pick. He's not viewed as a first round value. Sorry if I'm not making this any easier to understand. I guess just watch drafts and wait for McShay and Kiper to go off about a team reaching with their pick because their pick doesn't match up with the value they put on the player.

  10. #20
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    Re: Giants will be reaching between rounds 2 - 4

    What slipknottin is probably trying to say is this.

    what is a late 3rd round pick to mel kiper or other know draft analyst is probably not the same value to reese and scouting staff.

    so while you might feel that player is a reach at 64 you have no clue on the inner working of how the giants organization ranks / rates and evaluates their draftees, so its mute to argue what a reach or not a reach cause we don't know.

    the year where all those QB's came off the board early was due in part to NEED over BPA, so many teams needed a starting QB, so to that team it wasn't a reach its a reach to mel kiper cause he...HE rated ponder as a late 1st or second round talent, but the vikings knew that also Bengals / 49ers need QB's as well, So they drafted to need and by no means to them probably considered it a reach.

    pure speculation as i don't know whats going on in these front offices but, like i said neither do you or mel keiper his ranking system is much more different and probably less complex than an NFL FO.

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